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PC - Opinions wanted...
 
DABhand  posted on Mar 24, 2011 6:01:02 PM - Report post

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quote:
originally posted by Drakonis

quote:
originally posted by DABhand

The Black Edition CPU's don't differ at all in hardware to the regular CPU's, except for one thing... one byte of information. It allows motherboards to OC it fully, thats all 1 byte. They are the same hardware..

Anyways...

Even with the latest liquid cooling etc it doesn't matter sooner or later the hardware will fail, the CPU's are not designed to run at an extra 500mhz-1ghz for a prolonged length of time, in turn it will slowly degrade the hardware to the point it begins to fail and then will quickly degrade due to it already failing.

In a sense your not OC'ing the CPU per say, but the motherboard mostly not only are you increasing voltage to the port, but you have to increase the HT, DDR speeds etc to cope with the increase in speed. So even more hardware is under stress, you may be able to cool your CPU down well with liquid cooling and the ROM chip, but not much motherboards will allow complete cooling if your going to OC.

Yes, the black editions unlock the multiplier so you can OC. That's the point, they are designed to be OC'd. Many people have no problems with their OC'd machines. As long as you don't try and OC your computer to ridiculous amounts it will be fine and as long as everything is properly cooled it will be fine. Obviously there is always a risk in OCing. As long as you keep your parts cool and stable everything will be fine. Keeping your motherboard cool is where case fans and airflow come into play. There are motherboards that are designed for OCing also, of course they are expensive. OCing is fine as long as you have the right parts and knowledge. If not, don't try it.

[Edited by Drakonis, 3/24/2011 5:18:36 PM]

[Edited by Drakonis, 3/24/2011 5:49:15 PM]

[Edited by Drakonis, 3/24/2011 5:52:26 PM]

They are only on the market as black editions because people with more money than sense buy them, again it is the same hardware they are not designed to be stressed out.

For example 3.0-3.4ghz that has been overclocked to 4ghz won't last long without developing faults. It comes down to this if they were so stable why is there not 4ghz CPU's. Ahh now you get the idea

Take a submarine down to depths its designed for things are hunky dory for a long time, some may develop faults thats the nature of things nothing is 100%, but take it down even another 30 meters and it will cause the shell to start to buckle due to the pressures. It is the same with CPU's it too will start to buckle under pressure no matter the cooling.

 
Shibby  posted on Mar 24, 2011 6:05:29 PM - Report post

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quote:
originally posted by Drakonis

quote:
originally posted by Shibby

I'll leave Overclocking to the experts/adventurous

Ok so 1333MHz RAM instead, sounds good, will go with Value RAM anyway since well if it does turn out to be crap it's easily replaceable

And will look into the 890FX chipset MB's and see what I can get here (or shipped from overseas) and also see about getting a 5870 or Nvidia 460

Will stick with Phenom II X4 965 as it should be sufficient

Initially I was looking at about $1600NZD / $1100 USD but will revise that now, shouldn't be too much difference though, plus I get paid next Wednesday anyway yay

Thanks heaps guys, really appreciate the advice, I'd be clueless without it

For $1,100 you can get a very nice set up. Since you are getting an AMD mobo, you might want to consider one that has crossfire and get a single 5870 and then a second in the future. By the way, what resolution is your monitor?

Hmm I'll have to think about that. And the monitor will be a ViewSonic VA2231wm 22inch LCD (1920x1080 resolution)

 
DABhand  posted on Mar 24, 2011 6:07:54 PM - Report post

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quote:
originally posted by Drakonis

quote:
originally posted by DABhand

quote:
originally posted by Drakonis

quote:
originally posted by DABhand

Value RAM is not fine, they don't have great timings.

The timings will make no noticeable difference in games. You will not see any noticeable difference with one ram that has timings of 7-7-7-21 and one at 9-9-9-24.

The only thing performance ram will make a difference in is if you plan to OC the RAM.

[Edited by Drakonis, 3/24/2011 2:50:30 PM]

[Edited by Drakonis, 3/24/2011 2:52:24 PM]

[Edited by Drakonis, 3/24/2011 2:53:15 PM]

Don't mention the first 4 numbers those are generic with all RAM. If you had 1 strip of 7-7-7-21 and one at 9-9-9-24 the reason you don't notice a difference is because the system will take into account the slower.

Same with clock speeds, say DDR3 1666 1GB and you also have 1GB of DDR3 1333, both will run at 1333.

But the real information you want is above the CAS, tRCD, tRP, tRAS. After there there is even more timings and thats the difference between value RAM and quality RAM, the quality RAM has better timings.

Which still will make no noticeable difference in games. I wasn't talking about having one strip of lower ram and one strip of higher ram. I was saying even with the better timings the difference isn't that large that you will notice a difference. You will be lucky if you get maybe 1-2 fps more in a game.

Value RAM runs at a certain speed and will not OC very well. Performance ram is designed to run higher if necessary, that is the difference.

Here is a decent article, a couple years old but goes into testing different ram speeds. If you are an overclocker, you want the performance ram, otherwise not that much of a difference. Not to mention the rest of your machine has more effect on your gaming than ram timings.

www.tomshardware.com/reviews/ram-speed-tests,1807.html

I never said you were talking about 2 different frequencies of RAM. I gave an example to show something.

And again you missed the point, the first 4 speeds that mostly all RAM suppliers show means nothing, its the further 6 after them is the main values you should be looking at.

Value RAM has high latency in terms of those that they can effectively start lagging during operations as the memory has high latency and cannot distribute the data quickly enough.

So again Value RAM is not effective, in the long run it is no good, a good branded RAM is the better choice - it doesnt need the heatsinks etc, just a good set of timings.

 
Drakonis  posted on Mar 24, 2011 6:37:36 PM - Report post

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quote:
originally posted by DABhand

quote:
originally posted by Drakonis

quote:
originally posted by DABhand

The Black Edition CPU's don't differ at all in hardware to the regular CPU's, except for one thing... one byte of information. It allows motherboards to OC it fully, thats all 1 byte. They are the same hardware..

Anyways...

Even with the latest liquid cooling etc it doesn't matter sooner or later the hardware will fail, the CPU's are not designed to run at an extra 500mhz-1ghz for a prolonged length of time, in turn it will slowly degrade the hardware to the point it begins to fail and then will quickly degrade due to it already failing.

In a sense your not OC'ing the CPU per say, but the motherboard mostly not only are you increasing voltage to the port, but you have to increase the HT, DDR speeds etc to cope with the increase in speed. So even more hardware is under stress, you may be able to cool your CPU down well with liquid cooling and the ROM chip, but not much motherboards will allow complete cooling if your going to OC.

Yes, the black editions unlock the multiplier so you can OC. That's the point, they are designed to be OC'd. Many people have no problems with their OC'd machines. As long as you don't try and OC your computer to ridiculous amounts it will be fine and as long as everything is properly cooled it will be fine. Obviously there is always a risk in OCing. As long as you keep your parts cool and stable everything will be fine. Keeping your motherboard cool is where case fans and airflow come into play. There are motherboards that are designed for OCing also, of course they are expensive. OCing is fine as long as you have the right parts and knowledge. If not, don't try it.

[Edited by Drakonis, 3/24/2011 5:18:36 PM]

[Edited by Drakonis, 3/24/2011 5:49:15 PM]

[Edited by Drakonis, 3/24/2011 5:52:26 PM]

They are only on the market as black editions because people with more money than sense buy them, again it is the same hardware they are not designed to be stressed out.

For example 3.0-3.4ghz that has been overclocked to 4ghz won't last long without developing faults. It comes down to this if they were so stable why is there not 4ghz CPU's. Ahh now you get the idea

Take a submarine down to depths its designed for things are hunky dory for a long time, some may develop faults thats the nature of things nothing is 100%, but take it down even another 30 meters and it will cause the shell to start to buckle due to the pressures. It is the same with CPU's it too will start to buckle under pressure no matter the cooling.

Uh no, black editions are not the same. There are differences when making the CPU's. Some bins might be better than others. They pick the best bins for black editions and unlock the multiplier. With black editions you only need to change the CPU multiplier, you don't have to change the FSB and HT with the non-black edition. And you can also increase the speed without upping the voltage. They are easier to OC, that is a fact, go to any tech site and you will find out.

Why are there no 4ghz chips, they would be expensive and would need one hell of a stock cooler. Why do they not have 800hp stock engines for cars, because they can't? Of course not, it could be done but for the average person its obviously not needed and would be very expensive and not really needed. However, for OC enthusiasts 4GZ can be done and is done. Heat kills a CPU, not the "pressure" of OCing. Also, not everyone OC's to 4GHZ or more, many people OC maybe a 200mhz or so. I've had my 965 OC'd from 3.4 to 3.6 for going on two years now, everything is just fine, and that is with the stock cooler. Of course every chip is different, some OC better than other, depending on the bin.

Also, please give some statistics on CPU's oc'd to 4ghz don't last long. Do you have an facts to back that up?

 
Drakonis  posted on Mar 24, 2011 6:40:57 PM - Report post

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quote:
originally posted by Shibby

quote:
originally posted by Drakonis

quote:
originally posted by Shibby

I'll leave Overclocking to the experts/adventurous

Ok so 1333MHz RAM instead, sounds good, will go with Value RAM anyway since well if it does turn out to be crap it's easily replaceable

And will look into the 890FX chipset MB's and see what I can get here (or shipped from overseas) and also see about getting a 5870 or Nvidia 460

Will stick with Phenom II X4 965 as it should be sufficient

Initially I was looking at about $1600NZD / $1100 USD but will revise that now, shouldn't be too much difference though, plus I get paid next Wednesday anyway yay

Thanks heaps guys, really appreciate the advice, I'd be clueless without it

For $1,100 you can get a very nice set up. Since you are getting an AMD mobo, you might want to consider one that has crossfire and get a single 5870 and then a second in the future. By the way, what resolution is your monitor?

Hmm I'll have to think about that. And the monitor will be a ViewSonic VA2231wm 22inch LCD (1920x1080 resolution)

Ah okay, at the resolution a 460 or 5870 will be just fine and a single card should be more than sufficient. Good luck with your build

 
Drakonis  posted on Mar 24, 2011 6:50:24 PM - Report post

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quote:
originally posted by DABhand

quote:
originally posted by Drakonis

quote:
originally posted by DABhand

quote:
originally posted by Drakonis

quote:
originally posted by DABhand

Value RAM is not fine, they don't have great timings.

The timings will make no noticeable difference in games. You will not see any noticeable difference with one ram that has timings of 7-7-7-21 and one at 9-9-9-24.

The only thing performance ram will make a difference in is if you plan to OC the RAM.

[Edited by Drakonis, 3/24/2011 2:50:30 PM]

[Edited by Drakonis, 3/24/2011 2:52:24 PM]

[Edited by Drakonis, 3/24/2011 2:53:15 PM]

Don't mention the first 4 numbers those are generic with all RAM. If you had 1 strip of 7-7-7-21 and one at 9-9-9-24 the reason you don't notice a difference is because the system will take into account the slower.

Same with clock speeds, say DDR3 1666 1GB and you also have 1GB of DDR3 1333, both will run at 1333.

But the real information you want is above the CAS, tRCD, tRP, tRAS. After there there is even more timings and thats the difference between value RAM and quality RAM, the quality RAM has better timings.

Which still will make no noticeable difference in games. I wasn't talking about having one strip of lower ram and one strip of higher ram. I was saying even with the better timings the difference isn't that large that you will notice a difference. You will be lucky if you get maybe 1-2 fps more in a game.

Value RAM runs at a certain speed and will not OC very well. Performance ram is designed to run higher if necessary, that is the difference.

Here is a decent article, a couple years old but goes into testing different ram speeds. If you are an overclocker, you want the performance ram, otherwise not that much of a difference. Not to mention the rest of your machine has more effect on your gaming than ram timings.

www.tomshardware.com/reviews/ram-speed-tests,1807.html

I never said you were talking about 2 different frequencies of RAM. I gave an example to show something.

And again you missed the point, the first 4 speeds that mostly all RAM suppliers show means nothing, its the further 6 after them is the main values you should be looking at.

Value RAM has high latency in terms of those that they can effectively start lagging during operations as the memory has high latency and cannot distribute the data quickly enough.

So again Value RAM is not effective, in the long run it is no good, a good branded RAM is the better choice - it doesnt need the heatsinks etc, just a good set of timings.

The OP is using his computer for gaming, the video card and CPU will effect performance more than RAM will. Do you have any stats that shows expensive performance ram will increase game play over cheaper value ram? The link I posted showed not that much of a difference when it came to timings.

 
DABhand  posted on Mar 24, 2011 6:56:03 PM - Report post

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@drakonis

There is no real difference just 1 byte resident in the ROM chip. The TLB to be precise. You can force unlock it while in an OS but your unable of course to change the multiplier in the BIOS so you need software to do it in an OS.

Again I will stress there is no difference in hardware between the two, that is fact. It is just that unlocked multiplier.

As for stressing yes of course it will degrade over time while overclocked, the components are designed to run at a stable clock speed it is set at, increasing voltage etc will just hasten its demise.

Depending on the amount, you could get away with another 100-200mhz for a long time before signs show, obviously higher the more chance you have to damage the CPU.

And its not the CPU as ive said the motherboard gets hit also it has to deal with higher HT.

Any OCing tools from either Intel or AMD will tell you, OCing will reduce the life expectancy of a CPU. They don't just throw that themselves in there for nothing you know.

Let me ask you why when OCing a CPU do you have to increase the HT?

 
DABhand  posted on Mar 24, 2011 7:09:58 PM - Report post

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@drakonis again

I think your trying to talk about things you have basic knowledge of, as usual I get hit with the "Show me proof" crap :P

Here is some stats for you..

The difference first in clock speeds..

DDR3 1066 vs DDR3 1333

READ SPEED

1066 = avg 6GB/s
1333 = avg 7.3GB/s

Ideal timings for each

1066 - 7-7-7-20
1333 - 8-8-8-15

Now for frame rates, if you chose a game crysis for instance..

1066 vs 1333 = 1333 with a +4 fps avg

Now throw in crappy 1333 RAM with the 8-8-8-15 but double the latency as usual from value RAM - its about the same as the 1066.

So YES, it does make a difference and yes so does the branding.

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