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Posted: Mar 28, 2010 2:32:55 PM - Report post  (0)  (0)       Post Reply  post reply  

The whole point of gender equality is moot. If the women are covering their faces, they are doing so out of their own will. To force them to uncover their faces would just be insulting their religion. Besides, this particular issue of gender equality is contained entirely within the Muslim religion. All women can leave their faces uncovered, the Muslim women simply choose not to.

The government isn't giving women the freedom to uncover their faces, it's taking away their freedom to have them covered.

[Edited by Paradox, 3/28/2010 2:35:23 PM]

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Posted: Mar 28, 2010 2:50:55 PM - Report post  (0)  (0)       Post Reply  post reply  

Personally I support this bill. When you go to receive government services the first thing you do is confirm your identity. You show a driver's license or a passport, but if the person checking these can't see your face then there is no way to confirm this identity. It could be someone trying to defraud the government or the person they're impersonating.

As for the whole idea of the impact of Islam on women. Islamic countries are known for poor treatment of women. Things like requiring a woman to be accompanied by a man at all times when out of the house would be considered kin to slavery here in North America. But those Muslims who live here do have a choice, if a woman wants to wear a Burka or a Hijab then that's her choice. But you have to draw the line somewhere, when crossing the border for example, do you want someone with no face entering your country? I know I don't in mine.

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Posted: Mar 28, 2010 2:56:10 PM - Report post  (0)  (0)       Post Reply  post reply  

 quote:
 originally posted by AdmiralThrawn:

It makes sense from both sides of the argument. One the legal/state side, a person's identity is essential to providing them with the state services they request. On the flip side, to tell someone that their culture or religious views are not acceptable is absolutely outrageous.

And Foxxie, Elite, I think I will have to disagree with you on the issue of the idea that Muslim women have been brainwashed into concealing their faces and bodies. This sector of debate about Muslims is so hotly contested that I've reached a point where any testimony given by someone who doesn't live that kind of lifestyle, let alone never met someone who has, is garbage. This is not a slight against either of you, but I've done some digging, and found out that far from being forced to wear them wherever they go, many Muslim women, even outside Muslim-dominated societies, choose to wear them anyhow. Some say they like them, some say it's habit, some say it's and integral part of their lifestyle and individuality.

[Edited by AdmiralThrawn, 3/28/2010 2:34:09 PM]

Well I wasn't referring to all Muslim women there may well be plenty who prefer to wear it.
However seeing as they have been covering their face from an early age the way they may become part of the way they have come to identify themselves. I think one of the key words you mentioned is "habit" which is what it is really.

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Posted: Mar 28, 2010 2:57:46 PM - Report post  (0)  (0)       Post Reply  post reply  

 quote:
 originally posted by NobleCrusader:

This won't pass.
Nor should it be allowed to either.

You can't take away a part of a persons culture/religion like that.

Sooooo, if their religion calls for sexual intercourse with minors...would it be wrong to disallow that?

Or if their religion requires the ownership of slaves?

In a civil, secular society, we accept that some tenants of our particular religions are not conducive to the business of society and we give them up.

Muslims should be treated no differently than Mormons. We don't let Mormons practice polygamy, despite their religion requiring it. We don't allow fringe Christian groups or Santerians to conduct live animal sacrifices.

If head coverings are not conducive to the business of society, they should be given up.

Plus, if I have to remove my sunglasses when I show my ID, then a Muslim woman better damn well remove her veil.

[Edited by Dhampy, 3/28/2010 2:59:02 PM]

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Posted: Mar 28, 2010 3:02:25 PM - Report post  (0)  (0)       Post Reply  post reply  

 quote:
 originally posted by Dhampy:

 quote:
 originally posted by NobleCrusader:

This won't pass.
Nor should it be allowed to either.

You can't take away a part of a persons culture/religion like that.

Sooooo, if their religion calls for sexual intercourse with minors...would it be wrong to disallow that?

Or if their religion requires the ownership of slaves?

In a civil, secular society, we accept that some tenants of our particular religions are not conducive to the business of society and we give them up.

Muslims should be treated no differently than Mormons. We don't let Mormons practice polygamy, despite their religion requiring it. We don't allow fringe Christian groups or Santerians to conduct live animal sacrifices.

If head coverings are not conducive to the business of society, they should be given up.

Plus, if I have to remove my sunglasses when I show my ID, then a Muslim woman better damn well remove her veil.

[Edited by Dhampy, 3/28/2010 2:59:02 PM]

Exactly, baptized Sikhs are required to wear a dagger called a Kirpan. But when they board a plane they have to remove it, not because of discrimination but because in the end it is a weapon. Being part of a religion/culture does not mean someone isn't willing to abuse it.

A burka is the same situation. How do you know there isn't a terrorist with explosives strapped to him under there? Google it, it happens.

Public safety > religious freedom

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Posted: Mar 28, 2010 3:53:31 PM - Report post  (0)  (0)       Post Reply  post reply  

Actually, the law is really a bit nonsensical, seeing as the Burqa is designed so that the face-covering veil can be removed while leaving everything else in place. Just ask the person wearing it to remove the veil during the instances where necessary, let them wear it the rest of the time.

@Elite, just because someone does somethign because they've always done it doesn't mean that's a detrimental to anyone.

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Posted: Mar 29, 2010 5:44:28 AM - Report post  (0)  (0)       Post Reply  post reply  

MARCH 29TH
Airport worker warned in scanner ogling claim

LONDON (Reuters) - A security worker at London's Heathrow Airport has received a police warning and faces disciplinary action over claims he ogled a female colleague using a full-body scanner, officials said on Wednesday.
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The 25-year-old worker made lewd comments after his colleague Jo Margetson, 29, mistakenly strayed into the scanner, which can see through clothes to produce an image of the body, the Sun newspaper reported.

The case is believed to be the first of its kind since the full-body scanners were rushed into service at a number of British airports in the wake of an attempt by a suspected Muslim extremist to blow up a plane bound for Detroit on December 25.

They are now being rolled out at airports across the world.

Details of the incident at Heathrow's Terminal 5 on March 10 emerged on the day lawmakers said concerns that the scanners were intrusive had been overblown.

Margetson told the Sun she had been "traumatized" by what had happened and had informed police and her bosses at the airport's operator BAA.

"We treat any allegations of inappropriate behavior or misuse of security equipment very seriously and these claims are being investigated thoroughly," said a spokeswoman for BAA.

"If found to be substantiated, we will take appropriate action."

A Metropolitan Police spokesman said officers had been informed of the allegation and "a first instance harassment warning has been issued to a 25-year-old man."

Opponents of scanners have argued since their introduction that they risked breaching individuals' rights to privacy. Britain's Equality and Human Rights Commission has already said they might be breaking discrimination and privacy laws.

"For every official caught ogling like this, there are plenty more eyeing up law-abiding travelers," Alex Deane, director of the Big Brother Watch campaign group, told the Sun.

"These expensive machines are totally disproportionate."

The government says staff using the machines are properly supervised and would not be able to see the person being scanned. All images are deleted.

Britain's parliamentary Home Affairs Committee said fears about the scanners were misplaced and they should be introduced at a faster pace to deal with the threat of terrorism.

"The Committee is satisfied that the privacy concerns that have been expressed in relation to these devices are overstated and ... should not prevent the deployment of scanners," it said in a report.

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I don't want a big car, particularly. I have no need for acreage, and I don't like the fuel bills. But I don't want a small one because they're all like supermarket own-brand cola: weedy imitations of the real thing - Jeremy Clarkson

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Posted: Mar 29, 2010 6:21:34 AM - Report post  (0)  (0)       Post Reply  post reply  

As a sensible person I've got to say that I feel bad for the victim and that the guy should get prosecuted and what not, but as a perverted male I've got to say... Way to go. Seriously though, I've been in a lot of airports in my time and I would hate to think someone was perving at my man bits as I walked though the scanners, and would make sure they paid if I were the victim.
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