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Locked Topic  ATTN: Psych / Radiance
 
EMPiRE-GCW  posted on Dec 23, 2008 4:25:56 AM - Report post

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***NEUTRAL STANDPOINT***


Guys, guys, guys. I don't see why this has all blown out of proportion. And why this is even taking place here. If I was you, this wouldn't have been my first choice of a discussion area on this topic. Its just inviting more people in, who are clearly going to be biased towards you at cheathappens. Here's my two cents for what it's worth.

Anyway, the way I see it, is it's just all talk guys. He said, she said, they said. No-one as of yet has posted anything that I can see as viable proof to backup their claims. And this is from all parties, i'm hardly taking sides here. I feel I must point out however that Psych or the whole of RADiANCE cannot be simply stereotyped as rippers.

On top of there been no proof, there is also the following. Just because someone allegedly took out a premium subscription, doesn't mean that they must have ripped or in any other way used the trainers in their own work. That just simply doesn't add up. And as sure as you are, or how likely you think it is, thats just your opinion. Again, let me re-tstate what I put above. I am not on any side here. Cheathappens, can you prove that Psych/RADiANCE stole your options? Can you show that and make certain? And Psych/RADiANCE, can you be sure that Cheathappens have in any way stole from your options or anyone elses? The point is, you probably both can't. You might think the number or similarity of options in released trainers, or the date of release might look suspicious, but you sure as hell can't prove for certain.

Let me tell you what's happening here now, because this discussion isn't achieving anything. Everyone seems to have their own opinion, and there own way of perceiving events. Strong opinions are what I see here. Everyone has made their say, and now I just see posts repeating what has already been said. I try to run a game cheat related site, and I get submissions for any number of people, including you at cheathappens and you guys at RADiANCE (or more accurately in the past, eXtalia). Also, people like Kelsat who you are both very fond of (sarcasm there guys) also submit their work, and that gets added like everything else.

From the posts and conversations i've seen elsewhere, both of your teams hold the same ideal that ripping is wrong, and you both even worked together with a handful of other groups (that I will not mention here for privacy sake) in a joint-effort to try and at least slow the problem down. It was the same issue then. You claimed that Kelsat was ripping, but I couldn't see any hard proof that this was the case. And even if I could indeed make that distinction, it would mean unecessary time on my part to filter out this stuff and start getting involved, to the point I never wish too.

Personally, i've been around for too long, and as many of us more seasoned ones know, this scene/group war is nothing new. It always crops back up between different groups, and seems to get especially bitter when it is between a site that takes money and one that offers releases freely. The old scene vs. web deal. The brunt of the argument gets way of topic and eventually boils down to an argument between something completely different. In any case, does a team that takes money for trainers make them so bad? That because they charge for something that they are good at doing is unacceptable? Conversely, because they take money, does that mean they their work will always be better, have more quality options, get released faster and never have any bugs? On the flipside, going to another team such as RADiANCE, does the fact that they release freely, make their released substandard and buggy, and never contain good options that have taken rakes of time to achieve? I don't believe in any of it, from any direction. I see some of the best, most scene-leading work coming from both of you, and quite possibly only from you two parties.

Before I close out, I just want to add a final note. In light of the initial predicament, I thought I would go ahead and see what little truth there may be to this accusations. In no particular order, I went with Psych's latest offering first. As I can only obtain a promo trainer of the fallout 3 release from cheathappens, I had to compare one option only. Not much to go on I know, but it was done none-the-less. You offer a radiation option to protect from it. Psych has a combined option, god mode, that protects from it. It's not seperate. It seems completely different in the way that it is done. Moving to another game, GTA4. I'm aware of this whole xlive deal and the talk surrounding it. I won't digress too much, but basically from what I have seen of both trainer's, none of them seem to use this Rick's work from his reversing blog. Both of you perform memory-patching of some description, be it a loader or otherwise, and so I can see no truth to either side on this front.

I really do hope everyone involved starts to see sense and pack this crap in. It doesn't just affect a couple of people on one board, others get involved. Team-members, friends, supporters, and then in turn other whole sites and communities. Everything gets slightly changed as word goes around, and it all ends up in a mess. Like a game of chinese-whispers. Enemies (that may be too strong-a-word) cannot just start to get along, but there is really no reason too. Why not stay out of each others hair completely. Drop the accusations and stupid comments, because like i've already put god knows how many tmes, thats all there is from both sides. Leave each other be.

I have many contacts in various places, and when they start to get their feathers ruffled, I'm not about to stand by and say nothing. For the greater good of everything, quit it, you're all starting to get viewed in a bad light. And thats from a more independant, and neutral view guys. If you want to ignore what i've stated or shrug it off, so be it, but thats as honest and as clear-headed as your going to get.Have a good christmas.

 
Teneb  posted on Dec 23, 2008 4:34:13 AM - Report post

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This is going to be a long story.

Just some quotes:

zirkhaki
"Don't accept anything immediately!"
-- I fully agree with it.

Caliber
"i cannot prove he copied us, but why would he need a paid account with us?"
-- Thank you, I hope everybody who accused Psych (and Radiance) will read that post. Now about your question, don't know why he did it(I haven't heard him about it), but don't you ever download a trainer to see what options someone thought of?? I normally search the net before releasing a trainer. If there is a working trainer I check what kinda options it has, then I think if it is neccesary to release my own trainer.

BTW, Psych's trainers have more options, if these options wheren't in your trainers, he must have made them by himself.


I don't know the conversations you had with Psych, but back on Extalia, he wanted to quit gamehacking. He said he had his own reasons. Now I think this whole stories started back then. He was/is sick of it. I haven't seen him online, I think he don't wants to talk about it. I think he has his reasons for that, and I respect that. But I know one thing, he must have been pushed very hard, before realesing the .NFO file.

In Dutch, we have this saying "Waar er twee kijven hebbben er twee schuld", it's translation should be something like : "If there are two persons having words/are figthing, they are both to blame"

let's continue :
"which he did not release until AFTER a guy named rick cracked the xlive .dll protections by making a modified xlive.dll (or whatever it does)"
-- Psych stated clearly that his release doesn't use modified files. Modifying files is an illegale action. Instead he stated he had circumvented xlive.dll at all. This can easily be checked. And proves that he doesn't use Rick's release


"we are considering pushing forth with legal action. i am tired of this."
-- Be my guest. I think you could try, but it won't help you. As you stated above, even IF(highly unlikely) Psych ripped your trainers, you can't prove it.

PWizard
""BTW, if .... Team Radiance represent.""
-- You know I like to study history. You probably know the battle for Bastogne. To quote McAuliffe : "NUTS".
Threats will get you nowhere!


Serivor
""Surely the rest of Team Radiance doesn't support the actions that Psych has taken, do they?""
-- I don't know why he did it, I don't know if it was the right thing to do. Someone pushed him very hard, that's for sure. I know Psych a lot better then you do, that's why I will support him.


superweapons
""I know Psych a bit, and I think he's a respectable man. I've used a few of his trainers back in the eXtalia days (before Cal joined the CH team), and his work was good. I don't think he would need to rip CH's trainers to compete with CH.""
-- Thanks for not going with the flow, and stating your own thoughts. My point of view exactly. Psych doesn't need to rip trainers, to make his own...

""I'm pretty sure he knows how to rip trainers, but I personally don't think he would ever release them. Also, he opposes known trainer rippers like Kelsat, but then again, anyone can be hypocritical.""
-- Yes, I'm sure he knows how to rip a trainer. Every self-respecting software-engeneer, should be a reverse-engeneer.
If you don't know the how's and why's of a working trainer, you will never be able to release descent stuff.


Viscera1969
""i would wait and wait and wait sometimes days weeks and even months to get a free trainer""
-- Yes, thats' one of the reasons I've learned to make my own trainers. It makes you independent

""So if Pyhsc & those that back him have any INTEGRITY at all, He will Retract his statements and the group will take some sort of action against him for ever stating such HEINOUS and BOGUS Comments about Cheat Happens.""
-- It's a pitty to see someone who doesn't know what\who he is talking about making such statements. Hush, let the grown-ups talk this out.


Caliber
""Also, he used his account to try and post our member's only work AND a tool to try and crack our trainers.""
-- First, please, show some prove if you state such things.... second I read about a patcher being availible on usenet probably uploaded by someone using a proxy. Now I'm sure it wasn't Psych. He then told us about all these ripped trainers floating around on the net. That's when we started thinking about what we could do to stop those rippers.

Now I come to think of it. Maybe that's the reason he created that account, to expose rippers!


AugustBaine
""Let it be a time for everyone to settle their differences so that everyone can truly have a merry Christmas time.""
-- I fully agree! Merry Christmas everyone!

I hope I haven't forgotten anything.

 
Teneb  posted on Dec 23, 2008 4:48:40 AM - Report post

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Again my post was finished after a new post was submitted.

I think we have our neutral judge here:
EMPiRE-GCW stated that neither of the teams has condoned ripping.
And that the trainers it all began with aren't rips!

Thanks EMPiRE-GCW.
As from my point of view, this case is solved. I'll ask Psych if he wants to remove the specific part from his NFO file.

Merry Christmas everyone!

 
PWizard  posted on Dec 23, 2008 6:12:37 AM - Report post

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Thanks Empire for taking the time to visit.

Everyone keeps asking for proof so I thought I would offer some. I agree that it would be very difficult to prove that Psych ripped our trainers because like Cal said there is a number of ways to do it. All I can prove is that Psych has downloaded our premium trainers before releasing his own for whatever reason. A head start? To copy? You guys can make up your own mind. I make no further accusations regarding that.

However, I can prove that Psych attempted to crack and distribute our trainers (an illegal act, BTW) via the Internet.

Here's the timeline:

April 27, 2008

Psych purchases an Unlimited membership and begins downloading all Unlimited trainers. This is done secretly using alternate email accounts.

SCREENSHOT: Link

November 16, 2008

According to our server logs, Psych used his secret Unlimited account to download the following Unlimited trainers: Call of Duty 5, Fallout 3, Red Alert 3, Tomb Raider Underworld, STALKER: Clear Sky, Far Cry 2, Baja 1000, and Silent Hill Homecoming.

SCREENSHOT: Link

November 17, 2008

ALL of these exact trainers downloaded the day before were then uploaded as "CRACKED" to USENET along with a "TRAINER ACTIVATOR" which supposedly cracked all other CH trainers.

SCREENSHOT: Link

All of our trainers are encoded with multiple, redundant, unique user information of the person that downloads them. In EACH of these trainers, one of these instances was removed along with an Internet check. SEVERAL OTHER INSTANCES were not removed or found. Each one of these identified Psych's user account as the one that downloaded the trainers. We then verified by our user logs as you can see above.

November 18, 2008

I contacted Ryan Tyson regarding the infringement of our trainers, not yet knowing that Ryan was actually Psych. I emailed Ryan at his PayPal account address. He then accidentally replied using his PSYCH email address instead of his Ryan email address. I was then able to quickly discern that Ryan Tyson was actually Psych. For further verification I also checked the SMTP headers on emails I received from Ryan Tyson (ryant@xxxx.xxx) and Psych (psych@lixxxxx.xxx) and they matched up with the same originating IP address.

We store the IP used when registering each account in order to compare against potential hacked accounts. As you can see in the screenshot, the IP used in April matches the same pool used in the downloads in November.

SCREENSHOT: Link

I further checked our log files and each login and download, dating back to April were on the same ISP, (Entanet) and in the same IP pool based on RIPE.NET. The IPs include 78.32.xxx.xxx and 78.33.xxx.xxx.

So, you see, unless someone came over, broke into Psych's house, downloaded all these trainers and then stayed at Psych's house overnight, cracked them and uploaded them, I think it's pretty clear what happened here. Of course I'm sure that Team Radiance will still say it's all a coincidence.

You guys can be the judge.

Now, I have provided proof of a CRIME that was committed. I have yet to see any proof from Team Radiance on their claims made within their nfo file. Ball is in your court now. I'm happy to provide more proof in the form of email exchanges, more detailed SMTP headers and HTTP logs in anyone is interested.

[Edited by PWizard, 12/23/2008 6:38:41 AM]

 
zirkhaki  posted on Dec 23, 2008 6:29:54 AM - Report post

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What a shame. We wish to hear a reasonable answer
 
EMPiRE-GCW  posted on Dec 23, 2008 6:38:59 AM - Report post

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I'm disappointed if i'm honest to see that the posts still do not pertain the original dispute. As I can see, there is still nothing that proves he ripped your work and used it in his own, or crack and distribute the trainers. So he took out a subscription, thats all you have shown. I'm not trying to sound like an ass, but thats all I can see from here. It still doesn't show anything. You're probably quite aware already, but there are a ton of modified and leaked releases of your own from many sources around the web. It would be foolish to think just one person is to blame.

Might I just add too, that I am not on any side, and I do not care about the outcome. What posts appear here, make no difference to me, and probably not many other people either. It seems more personal than anything. But I feel I do need to be absolutely clear, that I am on the fence completely. If your goal is to change the view of RADiANCE towards its member(s), I don't think this is happening as they seem to see no reason to think otherwise. Whether this is just protecting their own or not I don't know. Like I said, it should really be killed. Its getting stupid.

I'm not expert on the subject, but isn't the posting of these links/images, getting awefully close to infringing upon privacy policy and data protection law?

[Edited by EMPiRE-GCW, 12/23/2008 6:45:28 AM]

 
PWizard  posted on Dec 23, 2008 6:48:58 AM - Report post

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Thanks Empire. BTW, were you one of the jury members that acquitted OJ? Just curious.

One of the whole points I wanted to make with this thread is that I'm sick and tired of these 'scener' groups hiding behind their anonymous NFO files to throw out whatever slander they feel like spewing that day with no recourse. You don't like us or what we do? Fine. We don't care. That doesn't give you the right to start spreading lies and making baseless accusations.

I wanted to open a few people's eyes to see what Psych and some of these people are really about and I think I've accomplished that.

 
EMPiRE-GCW  posted on Dec 23, 2008 6:55:07 AM - Report post

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I can appreciate you feeling the need to do that. If I was in your situation that could well have been what i'd have done. But anyway, no point dwelling on things too much. I'll leave this be. I don't think I need to input any more. Hope to see more great releases (from everyone!) in the new year.
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