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SpinkByUs  posted on Jul 10, 2007 3:04:22 PM - Report post

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I'm sorry, I didn't mean to inrude and then cut off any further discussion with my long argument, so please, if you don't have anything to add, continue your discussion about whatever you feel bothered enough to talk about.
 
ghost42  posted on Jul 11, 2007 8:41:22 AM - Report post

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I agree with your Pichu and Mewtwo argument, I main Yoshi and most of the other characters I play are low-tier, however Nintendo didn't account for most of the glitches in the game, nor did they have time to balance all of the characters (after all, Melee was a launch game for the cube).

quote:
originally posted by SpinkByUs

I have met these such people before, and I beat them easily with G&W and Jigglypuff, coincidently, while they used, of course, Fox, Falco, Marth, and others to name a few.

Obviously skill is more important than character choice, you are better than the people you have faced.

Also Fox and Falco have a higher learning curve than most lower level characters, Marth is a little bit hard and Sheik and Peach are easy to learn.

If Fox is learned properly then he would have several infinite combos (against a wall and via wave-shining and Dair) has a SHDL (short hop double laser).

Falco's Dair is FUBAR, also since he can jump out of a shine (reflector) he can shine characters up then Dair straight back to the ground again (or of the edge) and he has a SHL (short hop laser).

Marth's rank on the tier list is due to his range/ priority, also his sword is the most powerful at the tip (the most powerful part of Roy's sword is in the middle which makes Marth better since he doesn't have to get as close) also Marth can do combos like Fair, Fair, Dair (the Ken combo).

Please don't tell me Sheik is not broken, if you think so then train with her for about 10 mins and play arcade mode with her on a mode you think is challenging with other characters.

Go in to training or VS mode with any character with a Peach, have the first (not the Peach) character hold down and have the Peach do a down smash on him/ her (while they're crouching of coarse).

I think the tier list doesn't account Jigglypuff's rest attack since it is banned in tournaments.

 
SpinkByUs  posted on Jul 11, 2007 12:47:50 PM - Report post

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I don't mean to question whether you're on my side concerning the tier list or not, but I'm kind of confused about it.

Take this sentence from the "tier essay": "Marth is very fast in attack speed and running speed, has insane range and priority, and is very strong with the tip of his sword. Mr. Game and Watch is slow in attack speed, fairly weak, average running speed, and is very light. Therefore Marth > Mr. Game and Watch."

The "Marth > Mr. Game & Watch" statement is completely opinionated, simply because it can be countered with a statement such as: "Marth is fairly light, lacks power and range in his throws, and lacks the ability to easily perform consecutive tip-of-the blade attacks, making him a fairly weak character. Mr. Game & Watch has balanced attack and running speed, above average power in his throws, and is a small target to tall characters." Even if two characters are in a flat stage with no items, anything could still happen. Lucky shots, button-pressing mistakes, ANYTHING.

Another thing is, how is Pikachu near the mid-point of the list yet Pichu is at the lowest point of the list? I know Pichu may have some slight, if negative, differences to Pikachu, but how does that make him the worst character in the tier list?

[Edited by SpinkByUs, 7/11/2007 12:49:46 PM]

 
ghost42  posted on Jul 11, 2007 1:44:05 PM - Report post

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quote:
originally posted by SpinkByUs

because it can be countered with a statement such as:"Marth is fairly light, lacks power and range in his throws, and lacks the ability to easily perform consecutive tip-of-the blade attacks, making him a fairly weak character. Mr. Game & Watch has balanced attack and running speed, above average power in his throws, and is a small target to tall characters."


No it can't, Marth has the 5th longest grab range, can chain throw, can tip constantly if the player is skilled enough (I said before Marth has a mid-hard learning curve).
G&W does have good running speed and attack power, however he lags a lot at the start (smashes) or end (tilts) giving you're opponent punishment time.


You seem to think the tier list applies to low level game play, it doesn't.
When I mess around with my friend, if he plays as Jigglypuff and I play as Pichu (our secondaries), he'll usually rest me once (or twice) during a match and he connects about 90% of the time (unless I shield it) and if he uses roll-out I'll grab him out of it most of the time (even if it is fully powered).
We are both about mid level of play and we see the difference in usability in tiers, he used to main Samus, now he mains Falco while I still main Yoshi I used to have the upper hand against his Samus but now his Falco beats me most of the time (unless I manage to Dtilt him of the side).
People who play at a high level will be able to do the above 99.9% of the time as well as be able to time Marth tippers constantly which is where the tier list is based.


All high tier list characters have something that can be exploited by the people who use them, where as low tier list characters usually have something which is a disadvantage.
Yoshi is the only character that can not jump OOS (out of shield) I know a few people who have said:
"If Yoshi could jump OOS he would be a decent character and I consider playing him."
I also know other people who believe Yoshi would go from the top of the bottom tier to God tier if he could jump OOS (this is because of the properties of Yoshi's second jump).

 
SpinkByUs  posted on Jul 12, 2007 6:51:41 AM - Report post

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I meant he lacks range in not having the ability to catch from a short distance like a few other characters, making him nothing special when it comes to throwing. His throws do lack in power, though, so I needn't say anything more.

My counter statement being valid isn't the point. The point is, you can name any positive or negative aspect of a character, but it does not affect a characters rank in a list in any way. The makers of the tier list would have to pin every ability of a character with every other, making hundreds or even thousands of combinations. And even if that were possible, there's no way it would affect a character's statistical state, because it's not only a character's ability it can exploit, it's its oponents position that can be exploited.

Each character has its own set of abilities that can't be called better than anyone elses in more than an opinion. What character has an advantage over all others?

[Edited by SpinkByUs, 7/12/2007 9:56:07 AM]

 
Shadow369  posted on Jul 12, 2007 2:10:49 PM - Report post

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quote:
originally posted by SpinkByUs

Exactly my point, never should one character be said to be superior to another.

Let's get one thing straight: Unless Nintendo itself releases a statistical report about every character in SSBM where they are ranked in strength accordingly in tiers every other report released before or afterwards is totally opinionated. There is no factual information proving Pichu is ranked the lowest in the tiers, and neither is it said that Fox or Marth are the best. The only reason some people would think that they are the highest is the fact that they are more appealing than other characters, and because of this they are more widely used than some other characters, such as Jigglypuff or G&W. I have met these such people before, and I beat them easily with G&W and Jigglypuff, coincidently, while they used, of course, Fox, Falco, Marth, and others to name a few.

How is Mewtwo statistically bad? Do you think his slowness and slipperiness account for that? Would you even stop to think that they may even help him in a good way? Or is it that his attacks are too hard to pull off at the right time?

Until Nintendo does specify who is the weakest and strongest in both SSB games don't just claim a character is weak or is statistically bad or is in this tier or that one. I'm pretty sure Nintendo has set itself apart from other gaming corporations so that it could prove how different their views are. Popular genres, like Fighting, are in abundance, and I would think Nintendo wouldn't have wanted to make another unbalanced game where one character was the best out of all the selectable characters. A good example of this is Soul Calibur, formerly known as Soul Blade. Mitsurugi, Ivy, and Cervantes were so overly powered that Namco balanced them out in SCII, stating themselves that every character in SCII was balanced now. So, until Nintendo does what Namco did with SCII all thoughts about SSB characters, in general, are opinionated, and, therefore, are not true.

Actually, they should. I mean if you put up a Jigglypuff agaist Captian Falcon, who'd you expect to win?! Of course, it'd be Captain Falcon. Although the ranking of a character would not apply to a human player, so it's only for computers.

BTW, Mewtwo is statistically bad because his only good moves are really his grabs and some attacks can make it impossible for him to grab them (like Fox, his Dash Attack is really fast).

 
SpinkByUs  posted on Jul 12, 2007 3:07:20 PM - Report post

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You're missing the point. There is never a gaurantee who will win; you're just making a random assumption mostly based on your opinion. And the thing is, the tier list applies to high-level players, and not computers. Computers don't know how to exploit their own abilities.

Whether Mewtwo's attacks are good or bad is completely your opinion alone. There are many ways to exploit their benefits and disadvantages, but there is absolutely no way to adequetly rate them lower than any other character's.

[Edited by SpinkByUs, 7/12/2007 3:09:30 PM]

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