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Locked Topic  Creation vs. Evolution
 
Darkish  posted on Oct 23, 2006 7:15:23 PM - Report post

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Damn it, why can't I post before someone else posting. The following is ment for ES.

Alrighty then-

"And why do you insist on an ex nihilo God?"

Er, because that's what I believe. Why do insist on NOT believing in a God? Does that really matter. God is God, no God is no God.

"God isn't even realistically portrayed as a creator God in the Bible, because in Genesis the Earth is "shapeles and God is hovering over the waters"."

So, the whole 'God created the world in seven days, on the last day He rested' doesn't mean anything to you? The Bible saying that "The Earth is shapeless and God is hovering over the waters" (If it even really says that in the first place) doesn't really give you any standing to say that means that God didn't create the world.

"Why do you insist that anything was created out of nothing by God?"

Er, because once upon a time there was nothing? Right? Why do you insist that atoms and Big Bangs and chemicals came out of no where all of a sudden from no creator?

"You believe in something that is beyond your conception, yet you choose it over a logical explanation that has been researched for thousands of years."

Could it be because the possibility of no God is a theory? I'm not going to put my trust in theories, but the facts. The logical explanation is too logical and too coincidental for whatever the hell the Big Bang is. Chemicals and the first atoms coming out of nowhere to make what we have today over billions and billions and years. THEORY!

"Also air is not created by your lungs."

Fine, but that is still not creating something out of nothing, you are trying to divert the topic, so stop.

"You can't prove something that no proof exists for with something that you can't prove yourself."

Do you have any proof or facts that God doesn't exist? Nooooooo. Do you have any facts that creation through evolution is true? Do you have any facts that that atoms and chemicals and the right amount of care bear sunshine came out of no where to create what we have today?

"If you are failiar with Plato's allegory of the Cave you may see what I mean."

Actually, I think I am going to study it later this year or next year. But I'll look it up later because I'm curious.

"Also you cannot explain thoughts, how do you know that the brain creates them? As you say it is beyong your conception, does that mean my brain is a sort of demi-God?"

What is that supposed to mean? Stop diverting the topic.

Now I have said it before. There are two types of evolution.

The first is the Big Bang theory and that God doesn't exist. A.K.A Theory that will never be proven.

The second is the type of evolution that IS proven. A simple example is the increase of the breeds of dogs over the many years.

[Edited by darkish_raven, 10/23/2006 7:16:18 PM]

 
Darkish  posted on Oct 23, 2006 7:19:27 PM - Report post

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Zeth-

"God can't be disproved, but I defy you to give me concrete evidence proving him. Or it, or whatever."

The miracles that sicence cannot explain.

Let me tell you something. The theory of creation through evoluton has been pumped into the minds of the public school students for the past thirty or forty years (and possibly still today.)You cannot teach a theory as a fact.

"If I exist, I was created by evolution
If I was created by evolution, God Doesn't exist
Therefore, If I exist, God doesn't exist"

THEORY THEORY THERORY!

I could just say the same exact thing except.

If I exist, I was created by God
If I was created by God, creation through evoultion is false.
Therefore, If I exist, creation thorugh evolution is false.

Zeth, that really didn't make any sense.

[Edited by darkish_raven, 10/23/2006 7:23:07 PM]

[Edited by darkish_raven, 10/23/2006 7:23:32 PM]

 
Zeth_Durron  posted on Oct 23, 2006 7:26:54 PM - Report post

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quote:
originally posted by darkish_raven

Zeth-

"God can't be disproved, but I defy you to give me concrete evidence proving him. Or it, or whatever."

The miracles that sicence cannot explain.

Let me tell you something. The theory of creation through evoluton has been pumped into the minds of the public school students for the past thirty or forty years (and possibly still today.)You cannot teach a theory as a fact.

"If I exist, I was created by evolution
If I was created by evolution, God Doesn't exist
Therefore, If I exist, God doesn't exist"

THEORY THEORY THERORY!

I could just say the same exact thing except.

If I exist, I was created by God
If I was created by God, creation through evoultion is false.
Therefore, If I exist, creation thorugh evolution is false.

Zeth, that really didn't make any sense.

[Edited by darkish_raven, 10/23/2006 7:23:07 PM]

[Edited by darkish_raven, 10/23/2006 7:23:32 PM]

Read the post, it was only supposed to prove that you cant comint two opposite points.

You have to look at it from our point of view...we don't care.


Here...

If I exist, I was created by God
If I was created by God, creation through evoultion is false.
Therefore, If I exist, creation thorugh evolution is false.

THEORY THEORY THEORY!


Of corse you can say the same thing. I studed that, and that can be switched. Tomorrow, im gonna write a paper for school about this, I'll post it here.

And you can't "prove" miracles with the Bible either. Its just a blinded faith on the issue. It works both ways.

[Edited by Zeth_Durron, 10/23/2006 7:29:33 PM]

 
Darkish  posted on Oct 23, 2006 7:37:09 PM - Report post

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Ahh, I think I know what you mean.

If A=B
And B=C
Then A=C

Like that?

If so, of course that doesn't prove God's existence or inexistence, so what was the point of posting it?

And who said you need the Bible to prove miracles? You don't need the Bible even though there are miracles in the Bible and miracles science cannot explain and the only answer is that a higher power created the miracles.

[Edited by darkish_raven, 10/23/2006 7:38:40 PM]

 
Zeth_Durron  posted on Oct 23, 2006 7:52:07 PM - Report post

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quote:
originally posted by darkish_raven

Ahh, I think I know what you mean.

If A=B
And B=C
Then A=C

Like that?

If so, of course that doesn't prove God's existence or inexistence, so what was the point of posting it?

And who said you need the Bible to prove miracles? You don't need the Bible even though there are miracles in the Bible and miracles science cannot explain and the only answer is that a higher power created the miracles.

[Edited by darkish_raven, 10/23/2006 7:38:40 PM]

For the third time, the point of posting it is to prove that you can't combine your viewpoint with mine. You said somethign about atheism and that if God is corrupt...and so on. But with that statement, you impleid that Atheists believe in God. That is a contradiction of Definition. A Logical Fallacy.

There is more than one answer to the Miracles question.
You posed the idea that Either a higher power created miracles, or that they can't be proved. That is a fallacy called Tertium Quid (tertiary quandary, or third option) It states that a third option must always be present. So perhaps all existence is just in your head, and your mind creates your surroundings. Then, miracles would be you interpretation of natural events. That is the other option. If existence in in your head, then you could interpret anything how you wanted. Such as miracles.

Here is a possibilty. The Miracle of "The Water into Wine", the first recorded miracle. The obvious choices are

Primary Option = Miracle
Secondary Option = Historical error
Tertium Quid = Alchemy

Alchemy has been practiced since ancient times, with limited sucess. But perhaps, that Water was changed by an accident of a terra-chemical substances (earth-formed substances) that interacted with the absence of other chemicles and created a pleasnt-tasting drink. It is possible, but cannot be proved. Or disproved.

EDIT: spelling errors

[Edited by Zeth_Durron, 10/23/2006 7:54:02 PM]

 
Darkish  posted on Oct 23, 2006 8:06:10 PM - Report post

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Coincidences?

[url]spiritdaily.com/littlecoincidencesfolo1.htm'>Link

What a surprise! After you read it, you should know what I mean. I KNOW it wasn't 'coincidences' and atoms that came out of no where that put this particular site on my Mom's homepage, during this 'particular' discussion. I recommend looking over the site it came from.

[url]www.spiritdaily.com'>Link

"So perhaps all existence is just in your head, and your mind creates your surroundings."

You are kidding, right? So;

Option 1: God exists
Option 2: God doesn't exist
Option 3: Out existence is all in our heads!? Again, I hope you are kidding.

"Then, miracles would be you interpretation of natural events."

Sooooo:

Padre Pio losing a pint of blood everyday when he had his stigmata was an interpretation of natural events?

The picture of the Virgin Mary (the Juan Diego one), the fact that it has not decayed over hundreds of years, the fact that there is an image of twelve people in the pupil ALONE, the fact that it is not made of any known material is all an interpretaion of natural events? I REALLY hope you are kidding by now.

Chemicals CANNOT create miracles.

"For the third time, the point of posting it is to prove that you can't combine your viewpoint with mine."

Ok, I didn't understand it at first, I guess I understand it now, but it really doesn't matter does it?

"you impleid that Atheists believe in God."

I never said anything like that. I know what Atheists believe in, no God.

[Edited by darkish_raven, 10/23/2006 8:10:31 PM]

 
Shibby  posted on Oct 23, 2006 8:36:22 PM - Report post

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(going back a couple of pages)
Read all of what I said man. You can say god exists, but not worship him. That's what I'm saying. And if you don't worship him but accept his existence, you do not believe in him, because if you did you'd believe he is divine and worship him. Please dont ask me to explain again.
You make really ridiculous statements (such as your stupid one about the moon, we all know its there, you can bloody see it) then wonder why people dont answer your questions, sheesh.

(back to this page)
You dont know all there is to know about science, so how the hell can you say science cannot create miracles?.
I mean come on, we're in completely different countries and we're having a discussion in real time, 2000 years ago that would be said to be a miracle.
If you're going to argue this, please be mature and dont mention pizza pie's, moons, and all that crap.

 
Darkish  posted on Oct 23, 2006 10:03:53 PM - Report post

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Shibby-

"You can say god exists, but not worship him."

Fine, understood.

"And if you don't worship him but accept his existence, you do not believe in him, because if you did you'd believe he is divine and worship him."

Now this is where it gets just a little confusing for me. I'm not going to ask you to explain further but try to myself.

So what you are saying that if you accept God's existence, that means you don't beleive in Him? You and I have two different meanings of the word 'Believe.'

And even if you beleive in God, that doesn't mean you don't have to accept His divinity. Please be more clear next time.

"You dont know all there is to know about science, so how the hell can you say science cannot create miracles?."

Er, because science is logic. We as humans can explain logic. We as humans cannot explain miracles. Science cannot create miracles.

If science is logic
And humans cannot explain miracles
Science cannot create miracles.

If A=B
And B=C
Then A MUST LOGICALLY equal C, right?

"I mean come on, we're in completely different countries and we're having a discussion in real time, 2000 years ago that would be said to be a miracle."

What does being in a different country have to do with anything and WHAT MIRACLE, you didn't say anyhing.

"If you're going to argue this, please be mature and dont mention pizza pie's, moons, and all that crap."

Don't get me wrong, I'm trying to be as mature as I can be, Pizza Pies, moons or anything are just 'annalogies' would you rather me say 'upper class citizens' instead of pizza pies? I'll use whatever annalogies you want.

"(such as your stupid one about the moon, we all know its there, you can bloody see it) then wonder why people dont answer your questions, sheesh. "

Again, you are making a mountain out of a molehill. By using the 'moon' it was meant to be stupid or simple to get the quick point across. Don't twist my words again, don't divert the topic again and don't put me in a bad light when you really can't

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