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GTX 460 1G (direct CU) Lag While Gaming
 
Gladiat0r  posted on Jul 06, 2011 3:26:43 PM - Report post

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It wasn't directed at you. And sorries.
 
PeTTs0n  posted on Jul 06, 2011 4:45:25 PM - Report post

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To be really honest, DABhand isn't telling the whole story either. It's not all about API's (DirectX9 vs. DirectX11, for example), but about game engines, optimization etc. etc. (Even if APIs give a general estimate - some of the really demanding functions aren't all available in earlier versions of APIs, for example. Hardware tessellation is a good example; not available on anything lower than DX11, and it requires some GPU oomph.)

Additionally, if you take a look at some games, they favor ATi/AMD GPUs and drivers, whereas other games favor nVidia GPUs and drivers. And also, certain driver revisions in combination with certain GPUs, and certain games/applications, may cause performance and/or stability issues. (In general though, the difference is relatively negligable, even if, compared to the competitors cards and/or drivers, it might be very apparent.) Which goes to show that game engines play an important part in this area of problems.

One thing I would definitely check is your PSU (could be the cause of the noise (might be what's known as coil whine) and stability and/or performance issues) - do you have enough Amps on the 12V rail to supply your new graphics card? Are you using a Molex to PCIe power connector? Do you have multiple 12V rails on your PSU? If so, which one is powering your graphics card? (As a GTX460 requires substantially more power than a 9600GTX.)

As an approximate for the GTX460 (using 2x6pin PCIe connectors) the card uses, at maximum, around 150-160W, from these two along with the PCIe connector on the motherboard. (Equals 12.5-13A on a 12V rail, by the way.) I'd say you'd want to aim for a PSU in the ~500W area, with, preferably, a single 12V rail supplying around 40A, and an 80 Plus rating. (Meaning that it's above 80% efficient at certain load levels.)

I would also check if temperatures of the card and/or other computer components could be a problem. Try using a temperature monitoring tool (such as SpeedFan, or nVidia's System Tools) to see if GPU temperatures reach 80+ degrees C - this is usually a sign of bad ventilation in a computer enclosure. Also, you can try to remove the enclosure side panel, to see if the problems appear then. If they don't, the problems are most likely due to lack of ventilation. (As the problems you mention seem to appear when the card is under heavy load, this might be a possible cause.)

Source for the power specs of the card; [url]www.guru3d.com/article/geforce-gtx-460-review/13' target='_blank'>Link

[Edited by PeTTs0n, 7/6/2011 5:16:43 PM]

 
DABhand  posted on Jul 06, 2011 5:23:30 PM - Report post

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I did say MANY things.

Also you are going into the realm of taking information and changing it to make a point about something else.

Btw you are wrong about hardware tesselation not on anything under DX11, The old Radeon 8500 was the first GPU to feature hardware tesselation - so you can jog that to memory for some quiz you may come across on the history of GPUs or whatever

As for game engines being the direct cause, no it's not, it comes down to hardware, you could have a brilliant 3d engine great memory resourcing etc, but yet on 3% of specific hardware its rubbish. Is it the fault of the engine? or the hardware?
I agree a poorly optimized or built/compiled engine can have problems also. But it is not the be all and end all of problems.

You also have to remember users come here to get some ideas on what may be right or wrong, thats why I don't get too technical as users may have a brain explosion trying to make sense of it all.

So I pinpointed what the usual suspects are for poor gaming performance from the information provided, if the 9600 was working fine for someone then it has to come down to either drivers or the motherboard (not having a good FSB etc to cope with the 460). Hence why I stated those possibles

 
DABhand  posted on Jul 06, 2011 5:30:19 PM - Report post

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quote:
originally posted by Gladiat0r

It wasn't directed at you. And sorries.

Tis ok..

Just be careful, we don't want wars in the forums

 
PeTTs0n  posted on Jul 06, 2011 6:39:11 PM - Report post

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quote:
originally posted by DABhand

I did say MANY things.

Also you are going into the realm of taking information and changing it to make a point about something else.

Btw you are wrong about hardware tesselation not on anything under DX11, The old Radeon 8500 was the first GPU to feature hardware tesselation - so you can jog that to memory for some quiz you may come across on the history of GPUs or whatever

As for game engines being the direct cause, no it's not, it comes down to hardware, you could have a brilliant 3d engine great memory resourcing etc, but yet on 3% of specific hardware its rubbish. Is it the fault of the engine? or the hardware?
I agree a poorly optimized or built/compiled engine can have problems also. But it is not the be all and end all of problems.

You also have to remember users come here to get some ideas on what may be right or wrong, thats why I don't get too technical as users may have a brain explosion trying to make sense of it all.

So I pinpointed what the usual suspects are for poor gaming performance from the information provided, if the 9600 was working fine for someone then it has to come down to either drivers or the motherboard (not having a good FSB etc to cope with the 460). Hence why I stated those possibles

Well, there's tessellation and there's tessellation.
The Radeon 8500 had a special (very limited, which is why I didn't mention it - and I remember, I had a Radeon 9000 myself, and a 8500 in a later PC) tessellation feature, dubbed TruForm 1.0. Problem is (as with Glide, for example - man, 3DFX had potential all those years back) that this was a proprietary standard, i.e. a lot of users would not be able to utilize it, since ATi didn't own the market. Thus, it was not widely adopted back then - and didn't really come back (integrated into a standard, and a lot more advanced) until now, in DX11. But yes, theoretically you're correct.

Well, you say potato, I say potato. (Damn, that doesn't really come out well writing it.)
It's all about the Software<->Hardware commands. (In other words; drivers.) It's about how the software handles the hardware, and the error is... That's where it gets blurry. Some hardware designers cut corners, for example. (GeForce FX series and DirectX9 is a lovely example of this. Performance was really, really subpar, even if the cards, in theory, supported the DX9 standards. (Without any real support for 24-bit shader code, causing them to be mediocre in DX9 performance.))

It's a bit better these days, and even if the hardware does it's job of being pretty much standardized, even between competitors - the drivers... sure as hell aren't. That causes problems, and the problem thus lies between the SW and the HW, i.e. in the SW control of the HW.

I do apologize for being too technical in my post - as an RMA worker I guess it's a habit of work, and temperatures and PSU performance are sounding alarms in my mind when I hear a similar problem. Today's computers, with modern components and operating system, have a tendency to keep themselves up to date software-wise, without bothering the end-user much. And if something is not up to date, and is required, it'll often tell you so. (When it comes to Windows updates, DirectX, C++ runtimes, etc. etc.)

I'm still seeing heat and power as potential problems though, the 460 produces more heat than a 9600, consumes more power, and thus... they are not unlikely.

No offense, of course, I just wanted to broaden the view (most posts were regarding software issues, whereas mine took up potential hardware issues as well). I do apologize for being a geek though, or if I came out sounding harsh or in any way bad mannered towards anyone.

Oh, and aren't all posts in the realm of changing and twisting information to some degree? Otherwise it'd be just identical posts.

[Edited by PeTTs0n, 7/7/2011 9:28:00 PM]

 
dhanur  posted on Jul 07, 2011 8:24:13 AM - Report post

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I really appreciate for every contribution to this thread especially to DABH and moderators trying to give easy-to-follow answers.

To Pettson:
1. GPU temp. isnt big issues because GPU max temp. reading is 56degC (shown at GPU-z utility) at full load or as COd:Bo being played
2. Yes, the GTX 460 is powered by 2x 6 Pin connectors from PSU. Talking about power issues, how do we know that GTX 460 is well feed/powered?. What is indications if the GTX 560 isn't well powered?

3. Talking about static noise... well that is the 2nd big issues, can we talk about that later? but i 99% certain that the static noise came from GPU


My current vga is GTX 460 not 560.. sorry

[Edited by dhanur, 7/8/2011 7:38:26 AM]

 
DABhand  posted on Jul 07, 2011 10:21:29 AM - Report post

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Geforce 560?

Thought it was a 460?

 
PeTTs0n  posted on Jul 07, 2011 9:25:52 PM - Report post

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If it's at 56 degrees when the problems arise (could be an idea to log the temperatures, see if there are any deviations) it sounds like temperatures wouldn't be an issue.

Regarding the power issues; it can be noticed in different ways - blue screens, stability problems (freezing), image anomalies, performance issues etc.
From what I can gather, the M500 has a single 34A 12V rail, and an 80Plus Bronze rating, along with two dedicated PCIe power connectors, which should be enough, if the PSU is functioning as it should.

Have you tried older drivers? Both nVidia and AMD are notorious for introducing as many bugs as they fix with their new drivers. Some are really fubar (remember a WHQL nVidia driver a while back that had a broken fan control, causing a lot of cards to overheat when they shouldn't), so it can be worth testing an older driver. (Such as v270.61)

Also, mad as it may sound, see if there's an updated sound card driver. Some games (with somewhat poorly programmed game engines *cough*) might behave strangely if there's issues with the sound card and/or its driver - seen that quite a few times actually.

After that it's pretty much generic things that come to my mind; run Windows Update, see if there's a BIOS update for your motherboard, run a malware-removing software (MBAM is a gem), turn off/uninstall as many unnecessary programs as possible, and things like that.


Best of luck.

And as DABhand pointed out, 460 or a 560?

[Edited by PeTTs0n, 7/7/2011 9:26:36 PM]

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